value mess for textDirection in sectPr for traditional Mongolian

Question

value mess for textDirection in sectPr for traditional Mongolian

Regina Henschel 286

I want to set w:textDirection element in w:sectPr for traditional Mongolian. I mean the direction, that is vert="mongolianVert" for text in shapes.

Problems are:

For value "lrV" the description in section 17.18.93 ST_TextDirection (Text Flow Direction) in ISO/IEC 29500-1:2016 would fit to traditional Mongolian. But Word does not support that value in section properties according 2.1.557e in [MS-OI29500] - v20220215. [Remark: The direction of "lrV" is wrongly cited in 2.1.557e in comparison to the standard].
The supported old ECMA value "tbLrV" would fit. And indeed Word shows the text as expected, but saving the document in Word turns it into value "tbRlV" in transitional mode or "rlV" in strict mode. But "tbRlV" and "rlV" is top-bottom right-left, used for traditional Japanese script, for example, at least according the descriptions in ISO/IEC 29500-1:2016. From the description of "tbRlV" or "rlV" it corresponds to vert="eaVert" for shapes. So importing it in my application would result in a wrong direction if following the standard.

Tom Jebo 2,336 Reputation points Microsoft Employee Moderator

2022-08-15T21:20:11.813+00:00

Hi @Regina Henschel ,

Thanks for your questions about w:textDirection element. One of the Open Specifications team will follow up shortly to assist you with these questions.
I will also remove the openspecs-office tag as it seems this would be focused on the file formats and not more general questions.

Best regards,
Tom Jebo
Sr Escalation Engineer
Microsoft Open Specifications Support
Mike Bowen 2,051 Reputation points Microsoft Employee Moderator

2022-08-15T21:34:49.603+00:00

Hi @Regina Henschel ,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I will look into this and let you know what I find.

Best regards,
Michael Bowen
Escalation Engineer
Microsoft Open Specifications

2 answers

Your answer

Tom Jebo 2,336 Reputation points Microsoft Employee Moderator

2022-08-15T21:20:11.813+00:00

Hi @Regina Henschel ,

Thanks for your questions about w:textDirection element. One of the Open Specifications team will follow up shortly to assist you with these questions.
I will also remove the openspecs-office tag as it seems this would be focused on the file formats and not more general questions.

Best regards,
Tom Jebo
Sr Escalation Engineer
Microsoft Open Specifications Support
Mike Bowen 2,051 Reputation points Microsoft Employee Moderator

2022-08-15T21:34:49.603+00:00

Hi @Regina Henschel ,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I will look into this and let you know what I find.

Best regards,
Michael Bowen
Escalation Engineer
Microsoft Open Specifications

Answer 1

Mike Bowen 2,051 Microsoft Employee Moderator

Hi @Regina Henschel ,

In MS-OI29500 2.1.558 Part 1 Section 17.18.93, ST_TextDirection (Text Flow Direction) there is a behavior note regarding this:

d. The standard states that lrV orients the text from bottom to top, then left to right, rotated.
Word does not respect this value when used at the section level.

Does this explain what you see?

Best regards,
Michael Bowen
Escalation Engineer
Microsoft Open Specifications

Regina Henschel 286 Reputation points

2022-08-22T23:28:04.337+00:00

I had already noticed that part in MS-OI29500 and found that the citation of the standard is wrong there. Neither the description of lrV nor of tbLrV has "bottom-to-top".
Further problems for strict OOXML: If you save a document with Mongolian text direction to strict OOXML, then Word writes rlV although MS-OI29500 states that "Word does not respect this value when used at the section level." And for East Asien text (that what is vert="eaVert" for shapes) Word writes rl, but its description does not exclude characters from East Asian script from rotation. That would be rlV; but that is miss-used for Mongolian script.
Even in strict OOXML, Word does not follow the standard.
What will Microsoft do to get Word aligned with the standard?
Mike Bowen 2,051 Reputation points Microsoft Employee Moderator

2022-08-23T17:12:20.887+00:00

HI @Regina Henschel ,

I think I'm misunderstanding your question about "bottom-to-top". In MS-OI29500 says it should be top to bottom for lrTbV in 2.1.558 Part 1 Section 17.18.93, ST_TextDirection (Text Flow Direction) and in ISO-29500 17.18.93 ST_TextDirection (Text Flow Direction) it doesn’t mention a vertical direction. Why do you expect to see "bottom-to-top"?

Best regards,
Michael Bowen
Escalation Engineer
Microsoft Open Specifications
Regina Henschel 286 Reputation points

2022-08-24T11:55:24.567+00:00

I do not expect 'bottom-to-top', but I said, that there is an error in the Office Implementation Information. The error is in [MS-OI29500] - v20220215, page 239

d. The standard states that lrV orients the text from bottom to top, then left to right, rotated.
Mike Bowen 2,051 Reputation points Microsoft Employee Moderator

2022-08-24T20:57:30.933+00:00

Thanks for clarifying, I see that you're right and we will correct it in a future release. I am still researching the issue of Word changing "tbLrV" to "tbRlV" and I will update you with what I find.

Best regards,
Michael Bowen
Escalation Engineer
Microsoft Open Specifications
Regina Henschel 286 Reputation points

2022-08-25T16:11:06.607+00:00

Hi @Mike Bowen ,

I have the feeling that we are talking past each other. That's why I put the markup variants in a table. I hope that the problem is clearer then. I have sent the table to dochelp@microsoft.com.

Answer 2

Mike Bowen 2,051 Microsoft Employee Moderator

Hi @Regina Henschel ,

After reviewing this issue, there will be an update in an upcoming release of MS-OI29500 that correctly describes that <w:textDirection w:val="tbRlV"/> will cause Word to display text top to bottom then left to right the same way that tbLrV is described.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention and please continue sending any issues you encounter.

Best regards,
Michael Bowen
Escalation Engineer
Microsoft Open Specifications

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value mess for textDirection in sectPr for traditional Mongolian

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