modified date changes for unchanged files

Question

powerpoint, word and excel do change the "file modified" system date for old files (.ppt, .doc, .xls) if they are opened and closed without saving and without any change to the file.  This makes bookkeeping of changes for files used by several users a mess, and i consider it a serious bug.

(mac offioce 2011 on OS X 10.9).  Is there a bugfix?

Answer 1

Hi Roland:

Arshad is having an "I didn't read the question properly" day...

This is a long-standing "feature" that will not be fixed.

Bob is correct, it is the OS that's the guilty party.  This is a pest mainly in a network environment.

When Word (or Excel) "opens" a file, it registers an Edit lock on the file, in case you want to change the file. Neither app CAN open a file "read-only".  They always open with an edit lock (or: "exclusive read", if you like).  If the file server denies the edit lock (your case 3...) the file remains editable in memory, and you won't find out unless you see the "Read Only" flag in the title bar.

When Word closes the file without saving, the OS is supposed to figure this out and not update the file date unless there is a Save.  It should simply release the Edit lock.

Some file servers do not do this: they update the file date on "Open", and are then unable to put it back if there is no save.

It would be nice if they would fix it, but I think they never will, they don't get enough complaints to make the development and testing effort worth it on something as fundamental as the File I/O mechanism ...

Hope this helps

Answer 2

Let me followup a bit more:

The OS behaviour is normal UNIX behaviour, you may modify the timestamp to "now" but not

to anything else if you are not the owner of the file.  Unix is older than Windows, and we cannot blame Apple for complying with the Unix standard.

There is no problem with MS office if you read a file where you have only read access, because then

the program can read it but is prevented from writing anything (e.g. a file lock).

There is no problem when you are owner of the file, then the office programs undo their write by resetting the timestamp.

But if you are NOT OWNER but have WRITE ACCESS, the timestamp will be irreversibly changed when you read the file.

I consider this a bug from Microsoft.  It is no problem in Windows, but when they port their Windows programs to another OS, they have to make sure to comply with the rules of this OS.

They fixed it for the new file format (pptx, xlsx, docx).  There no timestamp change happens when you read the file.  But they did not fix it for the old formats (ppt, xls, doc).

Answer 3

There really isn't enough detail about network involvement or file handling procedures to provide an absolute response, but in general usage...

I don't see that at all here running Office 2011 (14.4.6) on OS X 10.6.8 [Snow Leopard]. I've just tested using ~15 Word & Excel files dating back to 1999. In neither case was the Modified date altered - even when I did, in fact, make changes - as long as I chose Don't Save when closing the file. The Last opened date was adjusted [as it should be] but not the Modified date.

Regardless, it's the OS that provides the dating for files -- Created, Modified & Last opened, not the programs.

Are you, perhaps, getting this impression from File> Properties once the file is opened? If so, that can be deceptive [although accurate] information, especially in the case of Excel. The Modified date often is updated in that dialog even if the user has not made any changes. The update is not permanently recorded unless the file is then saved, though... it reverts to the same date as what was in place when the file was opened.

The best places to [conveniently] get accurate file date info are:

Close the file, then either

In a Finder window use either List or Column view, or

Right-click the file & selecting Get Info

If the date is not correct in those locations bug must be in the OS, the hardware [e.g., PRAM], or your users are not providing accurate feedback.

Answer 4

Hi Bob,

your answer is not strictly correct, but your hint was nevertheless helpful.

First, i have installed office 14.3.  I will update as soon as the Mac comes near to an internet connection, and see if this solves the problem.

Second, you say it's the OS that changes timestamps.  This is not strictly correct.

All hardware access goes through the OS, but it is the application that causes the changes. 

The OS will never change the timestamp on its own will. 

If I type "touch ..." in a terminal, the terminal app requestst the change from the OS,

and if I write to a file from Excel, the Excel app request the associated timestamp change.

However, the OS may refuse to do what it is asked, and there the OS comes in. 

This triggered me to a test which, i think, got to the root of the problem. 

I created 3 test files:

 -rw-r--r-- myself mygroup ... test1.xls

 -rw-rw-r-- otheruser mygroup ... test2.xls

 -rw-r--r-- otheruser mygroup ... test3.xls

Note that there is no problem with new (.xlsx) files, only with old (.xls) files. 

Now what happens:

When I open the file, the timestamp is changed to current for test1 and test2,

not for test3 (where i have only read access).

When I close the file, the old timestamp is restored for test1, but not for test2. 

For test3, again nothing happens as one would expect. 

So what i conclude from this test is the following:

When opening a file for read (!), Excel writes something to the file, if it has write access,

and hence triggers a change in the modified timestamp.  This action fails on files

with read-only access, still i can read the file and see the Excel worksheets as

for the other files.

Then if I close without saving, the timestamp is retored. 

This works only for files where I myself are the owner, therefore it fails on test2

(and on test3, but there anyway nothing has been changed from the beginning).

So I can blame both the OS and the app:

Why must Excel write to a file when I require only reading?  That should be fixed by Microsoft.

It applies to powerpoint and word as well.

But Mac OS is the first OS which allows me to write to a file (and even delete it) but not

change the timestamp.  This should be fixed by the OS,

and I will try to find out if this can be remedied.

regards, RW

Answer 5

How was the date inserted. This happens if you have the "update automatically" field ON in the date and time screen.