Windows CE .NET

Posted February 5, 2004

Chat Date: September 4, 2003

Please note: Portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity

Introduction

Moderator: mikefos (Microsoft)
Welcome to today's Chat. Our topic is Windows CE .NET. Questions, comments, and suggestions are welcome.

Moderator: mikefos (Microsoft)
Let’s introduce our hosts for today.

Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Hi, I'm Mike Hall, a Product Manager in the Embedded Devices Group

Host: Croman (Microsoft)
Hi, my name is Constanze. I work in the Windows CE .NET docs team, the areas I work on are Communications, Internationalization, as well as the CellCore docs.

Host: damonb (Microsoft)
I'm Damon Barry, from the CE multimedia team. I'm a developer for audio and DVD.

Host: Mark (Microsoft)
Hi, Mark Miller - Windows CE Software Architect

Host: AndrewE (Microsoft)
My name is Andrew Enfield. I'm a new programmer writer on the CE documentation team. I'm working on a variety of things, most recently the VoIP and RTC docs.

Host: Mike (Microsoft)
Hi, my name is Mike Markley, I'm a developer in the Windows CE .NET CoreOS team.

Host: TODDSQ (Microsoft)
I'm Todd Squire, a Program Manager from the CE Tools Team.

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
I'm Susan Loh, a developer on the Windows CE OS team. I work on system performance. In the past I've worked on the RAM file system, registry and CEDB.

Moderator: mikefos (Microsoft)
Welcome everyone, let’s get started!

Start of Chat

Host: damonb (Microsoft)
Q: I am looking for a nice complete block diagram of the CE architecture. Something that shows where device drivers reside relative to each other, hardware, and the Win32 API layer. Anyone know of a URL or resource?
A: There's a general block diagram at https://msdn2.microsoft.com/library/ms920098.aspx.

Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Can anyone say what time frames are expected for the next version of SQL CE? Is there a planned service Pack prior to the next version to fix some gremlins ?
A: We've not announced any updates to SQLCE at this point - if you are having issues with SQLCE you should contact Microsoft Product Support - https://support.microsoft.com

Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: OffTopic:What is DLLHOST.EXE?
A: DLLHOST.DLL is the COM+ process - see https://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=328925 for more information...

Host: James (Microsoft)
Q: Using eVC 4.0 with Pocket PC SDK 2003, how can we get try/catch to work without the vtable error, and what emulators supports c++ exception with RTTI?
A: C++ exception support was not supported in 4.0. Also, Pocket PC did not support RTTI. You will need to rewrite your code using SEH.

Host: Croman (Microsoft)
Q: Is any updates to the documentation planned soon. including what part on the C++ stdlib is supported
A: We just released a docs update, and another one is planned towards the end of 2003. We will take your suggestion for adding documentation on C++ standard lib and evaluate it. Currently we document the standard C runtime functions.

Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: When will smart phones be programmable with the CF?
A: Smartphone 2003 - you can download the SDK today and start developing... https://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=A6C4F799-EC5C-427C-807C-4C0F96765A81&displaylang=en

Moderator: mikefos (Microsoft)
Thanks for all or your questions....we're currently working on responses. :-)

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: I have problems at changing the real time clock of the PXA250. Is this the SystemTimeToFileTime() bug on ARMV4 debug build?
A: I know there was a bug in the ARMV4 compiler which caused problems with SystemTimeToFileTime. It was on retail too, as far as I know. I don't know the status of that bug however.

Host: James (Microsoft)
Q: We've got a target device with only USB and serial on it. Can I use PB4.1 IDE loader and debugger or should I build my own tools? I use PB4.1 IDE loader and debugger or should I build my own tools?
A: Serial debugging is supported in PB 4.1.

Host: AndrewE (Microsoft)
Q: This does not make since, since MS supplies various documents saying C++ try/catch is supported, Will someone please from MS clarify and fix the documentation?
A: I'd like to followup on docs that say this - what docs are you speaking about?

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
A: (continued) I think we might have to carry that offline because I don't think anyone in this chat knows more details.

Host: Croman (Microsoft)
Q: where do one send suggestions on the documentation
A: Please send them to eapgfdbk@microsoft.com.

Host: AndrewE (Microsoft)
Q: Please look at the web pages about eVC 4.0, it will talk about c++ exception as an enhancement
A: Sounds good. Thanks. We don't own the eVC docs, but I'll followup on this after the chat.

Moderator: mikefos (Microsoft)
Hello. For those just joining the chat - Our topic is Windows CE .NET. Questions, comments and suggestions are welcome.

Host: James (Microsoft)
Q: James why does eVC 4.0 have in the web pages and documents that exceptions are supported?
A: Sorry, you are right 4.0 SP2 supports C++ exception handling.

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: I have several "Data Abort: Thread=..." debug messages during image boot on a custom ARM720 target. Is it a part of normal memory commitment process or an issue to debug?
A: It is only NOT a problem if it is accompanied by "TLSKERN_NOFAULT" messages. I suggest you build an image with debugger support to debug the exceptions.

Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Using the Compact Framework - is it possible to attach a debugger at runtime to a debug build of a program
A: Attach to Process is not supported with Compact Framework development at this time.

Host: James (Microsoft)
Q: James why does eVC 4.0 have in the web pages and documents that exceptions are supported?
A: The problem is Pocket PC does not support RTTI which is required for C++ exception handling.

Host: TODDSQ (Microsoft)
Q: So, no suggestions as to which phone to get from AT&T that supports the new Windows CE?
A: Samsung has a new model Smartphone coming out, the SGH-i700, that supports GSM/GPRS and will be used by AT&T Wireless Svcs.

Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Bruno : Is there a way with the InfraRed Port using the C#?? I don't want to use the IrDA.. I'd like to use something like the IrComm, or just with C++??
A: Take a look at system.net.irda - if this doesn't do what you need then you may need to P/Invoke...

Host: TODDSQ (Microsoft)
Q: Timeframe?
A: I don't know a date. Everything I've read only says "in the very near future". Sorry I don't have a date I can tell you.

Host: Mark (Microsoft)
Q: EricS : C++ Exception handling and RTTI
A: Windows CE is a componentized OS, the Pocket PC group did not include the RTTI component. Thus documentation about RTTI is correct for Windows CE, if it is documented as part of PPC SDK then it is incorrect.

Host: James (Microsoft)
Q: is attach to process supported then for eVC++ applications ?
A: yes it is.

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: I copy sample driver subtree into my project folder, change DIRS and write a line in the registry to add a driver to a platform. Is there a way to make this driver visible in the PB41 IDE FeatureView?
A: Look up CEC files in the Platform Builder help documentation.

Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Hey guys, what do I want, is just to open the InfraRed port, to receive data.. Without having to connect or discover a device before.. Can I do that with the P/Invoke, using C#??
A: Take a look at IrDAListner - this places a socket in listening state to look for connections...

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: RTTI support is important, who can we petition to have it added in the PocketPC 2003 platform definition.

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: We come back to our original question, how do we get C++ exception handling to work on PPC 2003 without RTTI?, it looks like MS should just say PPC 2003 still does not support C++ exception handling, is this really correct?
A: Sorry, but I don't believe that the PocketPC team is planning on supporting RTTI in PocketPC 2003, at all. You can try writing to edevfdbk@microsoft.com or posting on microsoft.public.pocketpc.developer. We on the CE team are really the wrong audience; PocketPC is separate.

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: Isn't PPC2003 the sdk of Windows CE.Net, or do you just want to talk about the .Net Framework and C Sharp and .Net development platform?
A: There are lots of non-PocketPC devices made with Windows CE .NET. Plus a lot of PocketPC questions end up being about the CE OS (drivers, file system, kernel, etc).

Host: Croman (Microsoft)
Q: Thanks for providing the edevfdbk address. Lots of people are posting on the news groups, we have yet to receive a reasonable answer, it continues to be frustrating. The lack of RTTI seems to have been an oversight. It is unreasonable that it is not th
A: Here is another alias, where you can send feedback to, it will go directly to the Pocket PC documentation: mddsdkfb@microsoft.com.

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: NickAtTen : @damonb\_ms: Thanks for the link. Anything more detailed? I am looking for interface definitions between FSDs, Block Device Drivers, and Hardware.
A: Our docs unfortunately are not that strong about FSD interfaces; I don't have any diagrams to give you. You can start by looking in PB help in the doc called "Creating FSDs." There is another called "Block Driver Interface" that might be an OK starting point. If you ask questions on our newsgroups there is some expertise out there too...

Host: Croman (Microsoft)
Q: What is CEPC and how is it useful when developing for CE.NET?
A: Here's the definition from our docs: A CEPC–based SDB enables you to develop Windows CE–based applications and device drivers on an x86-based platform. The Windows CE OS supports the family of x86 processors from 486SX and later. To find out more go to https://msdn2.microsoft.com/library/ms904279.aspx

Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
A: also, take a look at the MSDN "Get Embedded" article "Building a CEPC" - https://msdn2.microsoft.com/library/aa459153.aspx

Moderator: mikefos (Microsoft)
Q: Has anyone used Jungo's WinDriver to develop CE.NET device drivers?
A: We typically use our own tools. ;-) I'm not sure that anyone of our chat hosts is familiar with Jungo's tools.

Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: So Mckendric is an embedded WinOS that supports the .NET Framework?
A: McKendric is Windows CE 4.2 - which supports the .NET Compact Framework.

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
A: Windows CE is a highly configurable OS; OEMs which make devices with CE can choose to add .NET framework support to their device, but not all CE devices support the CF -- because some OEMs choose to omit it. PocketPC is one device that was built with CE and includes the CF.

Host: Croman (Microsoft)
Q: Does this mean that you run CE on a PC platform and develop drivers for devices from there?
A: We mainly use the CEPC as a reference platform or for testing. From where you develop your drivers will depend on your target hardware, though. Here is the answer about driver development on a CEPC from our docs: CEPC–based SDB is useful when, for example, you write new device drivers for integrated circuits (IC) or chips that are available on ISA or PCI boards.

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: Are there tools other than those provided with PB? Read: something to create a driver skeleton?
A: Maybe from a 3rd party (BSquare?) but none that we on this chat know about. There are lots of sample drivers included with PB that you can start from.

Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: Anyone here doing App development on WinCE.NET that is *not* for PPC?
A: The majority of our ISV community is on PocketPC or Smartphone. Our non-ISV customers are OEMs who are building devices along with the software for those devices. So it is rare to find someone who is making non-PPC software and not making a device.

Moderator: mikefos (Microsoft)
Thanks for joining us today and thanks for the questions. Please see the chats schedule for upcoming topics.

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