Windows CE 5.0 Live Chat
Posted October 21, 2004
Chat Date: September 30, 2004
Please note: Portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity
Introduction
Moderator: Mikefos (Microsoft)
Welcome to today's Chat. Our topic covers broad topic of Windows CE 5.0 – platform development, application development, you name it!. Questions, comments, and suggestions are welcome.
Moderator: Mikefos (Microsoft)
Let’s introduce our hosts for today.
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Hi, I'm Mike Hall, a Technical Product Manager in the Mobile and Embedded Devices Group.
Host: CLE (Microsoft)
Hi, I'm Christopher Le. I work on the IDE team. One of my areas of ownership include enabling SDK scenarios.
Host: tleitao (Microsoft)
Hi I am Toni Leitao. I am the lead PM for Platform Builder
Host: JohnMarc (Microsoft)
Good Morning everyone. I'm John Marcantonio, a Program Manager in the WinCE Graphics and Multimedia team.
Host: aaronche (Microsoft)
Hi, I'm Aaron Cheng. I'm a program manager in the Windows CE Multimedia and Graphics team. My focus is mainly on audio and DRM.
Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Hi, I'm Susan Loh, a developer on the Windows CE Team. I work on system performance and perf tools, and have experience with the kernel and file system.
Host: chigy (Microsoft)
Hello, I am Chigusa Sansen. I am a Program Manager for Platform Builder.
Host: JamesS (Microsoft)
Hi my name is James Stulz, Program Manager for Platform Builder Compilers & Debuggers.
Moderator: Mikefos (Microsoft)
Welcome everyone, let’s get started!
Start of Chat
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: I have built a WinCE 5.0 SDK. After installing it I call build applications for it using VE2005. None of the other developers can, what are they missing?
A: You need the Visual Studio Authentication client to be running on your target platform, then configure the device connection to use the IP address of the device - this MSDN article details the steps: https://msdn2.microsoft.com/library/aa459145.aspx
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: What are the Mobile 32-bit processors supported by Windows CE 5?
A: All Windows Mobile devices (Pocket PC and Smartphone) are based on the ARM family of processors - Windows CE 5.0 supports x86, MIPS, ARM, and SH4.
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Mike, it is not a problem of connecting to the device. They do not even see the platform I built in the list of configurations. They only see the Smartphone and PocketPC options.
A: You don't need a specific SDK to use Visual Studio with an Embedded device - take a look at the article, you only need to configure Visual Studio correctly, and have the Visual Studio Device Authentication utility running on the client.
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Not a technical question...but why did you guys drop ".NET" from the name?
A: .NET was confusing for some customers - some thought that ALL applications needed to be written using the .NET Compact Framework - ".NET" is just a component in the O/S that customers could choose for their platform - it's your decision whether to include or exclude the .NET Compact Framework from the platform you are building. So the new version of Windows CE is called Windows CE 5.0 (and still includes the .NET Compact Framework in the catalog)
Moderator: Mikefos (Microsoft)
Q: What is being done to fix the device driver model incompatibilities between the CE .NET base and Mobile Editions?
A: Are there specific drivers or specific incompatibilities that you're running into? This information would help us to frame a more qualified response.
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: H do you update devices with an older version of the operating system with Windows CE 5?
A: That depends on the device - some devices have the operating system in Flash (devices like Pocket PC, or Smartphone) - the manufacturer of these devices often produces an application to re-flash the device with a new version of the O/S - if you are building your own device you should consider adding this capability into your bootloader.
Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: Does Windows CE 5.0 have any support for disk caching? If not do you think it would be difficult to add?
A: Yes, FATFS and the RAM file system both do some caching -- it is done at the file system level.
Moderator: Mikefos (Microsoft)
Hello. For those just joining the chat - Our topic covers Windows CE 5.0. Questions, comments and suggestions are welcome.
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Someone pointed out that the SDK documentation for both PPC and Smartphone contains references to ObexXXX functions (such as ObexConnect etc) that are ostensibly located in obexguid.lib. Not only obexguid.lib does not exists in either one of 2003 SDKs (it was in 2002 SDKs), but these OBEX functions do not seem to be exported from any of the DLLs on the actual device. Is documentation in need of update? What happened to OBEX?
A: There is a really neat OBEX sample that works on Pocket PC 2003 - complete source is provided - take a look here - https://www.codeproject.com/ce/MbPocketOBEX.asp
Host: GlennD (Microsoft)
Q: Should native Windows CE 4.2 device drivers work in 5.0 without having to be rebuilt?
A: In the case of network drivers at least, this is possible. Other driver models may differ (we're tracking down relevant people to respond shortly..).
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Is there any support packages with wince that are geared toward VOIP such as echo cancellation?
A: Windows CE 4.2 and 5.0 have VoIP capabilities built in, at two levels, VAIL, the Voice Application Interface Layer - this makes it easy for developers to create applications that interface with a VoIP server, and TUI, the Telephony User Interface - a sample UI for VoIP applications - echo cancellation isn't built into this solution.
Host: Michael (Microsoft)
Q: Do you have video chat or messenger supporting AV under Windows CE 5.0
A: The Messenger client in 5.0 supports audio but not video.
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: If a vendor would configure and release a Pocket PC based on CE 5.0 vs CE 4 or 4.2 what are some things that the Pocket PC developer might be able to take advantage of that is not in 4.2?
A: There aren't any Pocket PC devices shipping on Windows CE 5.0, so, at this point developers must develop against Windows Mobile 2003 and Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition - both of which are based on Windows CE 4.2. Or was your question more of a "what's new in Windows CE 5.0" ?
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Any preliminary date as to when Windows CE 6.0 is coming out?
A: We've not set the version number of release date for the next version of Windows CE - our product roadmap slide shows the next version of Windows CE being available "2005+". Do you have a list of features that are not shipping in Windows CE 5.0 that you would like to see in Windows CE V-Next ?
Host: apearson (Microsoft)
Q: What is being done to fix the device driver model incompatibilities between the CE .NET base and Mobile Editions?
A: What incompatibilities are these? The base driver model is the same, although it has evolved slightly with different versions of CE.
Host: apearson (Microsoft)
Q: Just about every device driver I have seen (Socket for one) that runs under Mobile Edition fails under CE .NET 4.x even though they are all ARM devices. Go to any manufacturer’s web site that has drivers for Mobile Edition and very few say they support CE .NET Why?
A: There is a larger market for PPC/SP devices than "general embedded" devices. Hardware vendors don't see the same value proposition in claiming general embedded support and there is no easy way for them to test whether their driver works on *all* embedded systems. However, the fact that they don't claim general embedded support doesn't mean their driver won't work.
Guest: shiggins
Q: It also appears (from my conversations) that the major rugged device manufacturers (Intermec, Symbol) are all moving away from CE .NET in favor of the Mobile edition platform specifically because of the device driver incompatibilities.
Guest: shiggins
Q: Because the device drivers are obviously not binary compatible, and if it was only a matter of a re-compile for CE .NET they would be supporting it but there must be something else, that is why I asked the question. .
Host: apearson (Microsoft)
A: Different versions of the CE OS have different compilers and linkers. For example, a binary compiled under 5.0 would not run on 4.2 without a bit of effort. Since PPC 2003 is built on 4.2, a 5.0 driver won't run. But a 4.2 driver for the same architecture should run. What is the problem you are seeing?
By the way, this is a more appropriate question for a drivers chat -- we may not be able to delve into to the degree you want in this forum.
Guest: shiggins
Q: I appreciate the effort. The problems we have are numerous. Drivers fail to load, or load but can not find the hardware, drivers without the supporting apps (for example we managed to get a CE .NET Socket Bluetooth driver but none of the supporting utilities such as virtual com port mapping, printer support, etc. We had to write them ourselves for CE .NET.
A: Let me make sure I understand what you're trying to accomplish. You are trying to run PPC/SP drivers on your own CE.NET system, is that right? If so, what version is your system? The rule of thumb is that nothing built on a version of the OS will run on a previous version.
Guest: shiggins
Q: I understand the required driver difference between 4.x and 5.x (somewhat) but not between 4.x and its variations. We are currently running CE .NET 4.2, but had problems with all of the CE .NET 4.x versions. So what Mobile editions are built on CE .NET 4.2?
A: Perhaps that's the source of your problems; however, binaries built on an earlier version of the OS should run on a later version. We are running out of time here -- I recommend that you post this question on one of the CE or SP/PPC newsgroups. It's quite possible that other people have hit the same issues you are struggling with now.
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Has the Pocket PC team evaluated migrating to CE 5.0 to come back with any type of prototype or proof of concept build to help identify the effort and schedule to create a CE 5.0 based Pocket PC?
A: This is a Windows CE "Embedded" chat, you would need to talk with the Windows Mobile guys to get an answer to that question.
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Follow up on CE 5.0 and pocket PC - What is new in CE 5.0 that might be exposed and used by Pocket PC application developers?
A: The Windows Mobile team have the ability to take any of the components that ship with Windows CE and include these in their adaptation kit, for WM2003 they chose a set of components and technologies from Windows CE 4.2 that made sense for their specific implementation of Windows CE - there are over 300 changes to Windows CE 5.0 over Windows CE 4.2, if the Windows Mobile team decided to build their next device implementation based on Windows CE 5.0 they could take advantage of any of the new or existing features.
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: So Mike Hall, what's up your sleeve next for Channel9 activities?
A: I have an interview with the Windows CE documentation team this morning, there are some more MSR Videos coming later this week, and some Windows XP Embedded videos coming real soon - I also have some non-embedded videos in the queue - should be interesting! - I will post to my blog when these are available - https://blogs.msdn.com/mikehall
Host: shunm (Microsoft)
Q: Is there any WAP Browser for Windows CE from Microsoft ?
A: WAP is only supported on Windows Mobile (SP and PPC) platform. Not supported on Windows CE 4.x and 5.0.
Host: Michael (Microsoft)
Q: Does anyone have a comment about the apparent lack of support for RDP on screen sizes smaller than 320x240?
A: Remoting a full screen desktop on a less than QVGA screen is painful at best. The demand for a faster RDP client for the Thin Client market outweighed the work required to make RDP work on smaller, low resolution devices.
Host: shunm (Microsoft)
Q: May I run javaapplets in pIE of WINCE5.0?
A: You need to acquire JVM from 3rd party. If JVM is on the device, both pIE and IE will work with Java applets.
Host: shunm (Microsoft)
Q: But the problem is ... don’t are JVM that works fine in pIE of Pocket PCs!? For example Geode JVM works with pIE of HPC2000!
Host: shunm (Microsoft)
Q: The problem are JVMs or pIE of Pocket PCs!?
Host: shunm (Microsoft)
A: I can not tell from here whether there is problem with pIE or the JVM you are using. You need to make sure that you use JVM for that platform. if you have particular situation, you can post your issues in newsgroup and we can follow up.
Moderator: Mikefos (Microsoft)
We’ve got about 15 minutes left in this chat concerning Windows CE 5.0. Questions, comments and suggestions are welcome
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
Q: Any other Voice applications on Windows CE ?
A: There are a number of 3rd party options - perhaps one of the more interesting applications is the Skype client - https://www.skype.com
Host: mikehall (Microsoft)
A: One of the first shipping devices based on Windows CE 5.0 is the Portable Media Center - https://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/portablemediacenter/default.mspx - check out https://www.windowsfordevices.com to keep up to date with the list of shipping devices.
Host: SusanLoh (Microsoft)
Q: Now that CE 5.0 has been out for a whole 2 months now any hint on when we may see the first feature add-on pack, and what features are MS priority?
A: There are no publicly announced updates coming up... You'll just have to wait and see, sorry.
Host: Michael (Microsoft)
Q: I am looking for applications like Skype and Portrait but with Video Support via Wifi?
A: Check out TabletMedia https://www.tabletmedia.com for a video VoIP application.
Host: apearson (Microsoft)
Q: What Mobile editions are built on CE .NET 4.2?
A: PPC2003 and SP2003 are built on 4.2. Prior versions of Mobile devices were built on an intermediate (i.e., not publicly released) version of 3.0.
Moderator: Mikefos (Microsoft)
Q: The AUM audio driver model seems to need some better documentation, can we see a doc update for this?
A: Thanks Rob, we'll pass along this feedback to out docs folks and see what they can do.
Moderator: Mikefos (Microsoft)
Thanks for joining us today and thanks for the questions. It's time for us to go now.
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