Windows CE 5.0 Live Chat

Article
01/21/2022

Posted November 3, 2004

Chat Date: October 28, 2004

Please note: Portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity

Introduction

Andy Q (Moderator):
Welcome to today’s chat. Our topic is Windows CE 5.0 Live Chat! . Questions, comments, and suggestions are welcome.

Andy Q (Moderator):
We are pleased to welcome our Experts for today’s chat. I will have them introduce themselves now.

JayLoney_MSFT (Expert):
Jay Loney is the Program Manager for Base Drivers. My group owns all Bus drivers (USB, SDIO, PCCard, 1394, ...), the Device Manager and Power Manager.

JohnMarc_MS (Expert):
Good morning everyone, I'm John Marcantonio, a Program Manager in the WinCE Graphics and Multimedia team. I own technologies such as Direct3D Mobile, Direct Draw, GDI / Display Drivers, Windows Media Codecs, Players and OCX.

Michael_MS (Expert):
Hi, I'm Michael Malueg, a Program Manager in the Embedded Group focusing on Voice over IP

David_MS (Expert):
David Campbell: Lead Program Manager, Windows CE Networking. Our team owns networking, communications & parts of security in the core Windows CE OS. That includes protocols, stacks, drivers, etc for wired & wireless communications. Most of these components make their way into any networked Windows CE device.

russellk_MS (Expert):
Greetings. I'm Russ Keldorph. I'm a developer for the Windows CE compilers, assemblers, and C/C++ Runtime.

GlennD_MS (Expert):
Glenn Davis, Development Lead for CE networking.

Tucker_MS (Expert):
I'm Tucker Hatfield, Program Mayer for the IDE and Catalog

Andy Q (Moderator):
I'm Andy Quig, Communities Business Manager.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
I'm Mike Hall, a Technical Product Manager in the Embedded Group working on Windows CE and Windows XP Embedded

JamesS_MS (Expert):
Hi my name is James Stulz, I’m the PM for the WinCE Compilers & Debugger.

David_MS (Expert):
Q: Will a custom wireless network driver written for Win CE 4.2 work under Win CE 5.0 without a recompilation?
A: Yes, they should. We attempted to keep compat.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: We are a Window Mobile partner, custom hardware, lots of addl prop. app sw. We currently use evc4.0 for apps, and PB5.0 for BSP work. How much longer will we be able to use evc4.0 for apps incl. debugging?
A: Hi, I'm Mike Hall, a Technical Product Manager in the Embedded Group working on Windows CE and Windows XP Embedded - check out my blog here https://blogs.msdn.com/mikehall

JayLoney_MSFT (Expert):
Q: CE5.0 has no pxa255 BSP, but does include CSP. What is the future of pxa255 support under CE?
A: Support for the Lubbock BSP which contained 255 was deprecated in CE 5.0. The CSP drivers were left for people still using the chip, however the reference board is no longer available in hardware.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: We are a Window Mobile partner, custom hardware, lots of addl prop. app sw. We currently use evc4.0 for apps, and PB5.0 for BSP work. How much longer will we be able to use evc4.0 for apps incl. debugging?
A: Windows CE 5.0 applications can be written in Platform Builder (Win32), or eMbedded Visual C++ 4.0 SP4 (Win32, MFC, ATL) - The next release of Visual Studio will allow you to write both native (Win32, MFC, ATL) or Managed (C#, VB.NET) applications.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: I'm investigating what is required to develop a program using the compact framework for a SBC running CE 5.0. What development tools will we need in order to develop and debug? Where does Platform Builder fit into the process?
A: Platform Builder is used to develop the initial operating system image, you can include the .NET Compact Framework in your platform - you then use Visual Studio .NET 2003 to write C# or VB applications for your platform - take a look at this MSDN article to see how the process works - https://msdn2.microsoft.com/library/aa459145.aspx

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: Probably a dumb question, but Windows CE 5 relates to which version of PocketPC?
A: Windows CE 5.0 doesn't relate to any release of Pocket PC - the current release of Pocket PC and Smartphone devices are based on Windows CE 4.2 - an example of a shipping device based on Windows CE 5.0 would be the Portable Media Center.

David_MS (Expert):
Q: Is there support for RFID or UWB in CE 5.0?
A: No specific support for these have been added but we're not aware of anything preventing either of these technologies from being used on a device. What would be required is a custom driver and potentially custom apps depending on purpose.

JamesS_MS (Expert):
Q: As our device cannot use activesync is there a method in CE 5.0 to get performance statistics out of Win CE 4.2 or Win CE 5.0 without the activesync port being used?
A: Remote Perfmon can use KITL or TCPIP, but requires the device to support those transports.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: What is windows CE 5.0?
A: Windows CE 5.0 is a real-time, componentized, embedded operating system that runs on x86, MIPS, ARM and SHx processors.

MikeThom MS (Expert):
Q: Win CE 4.2 in terms of the optional packages has Pocket IE I believe version 5.5 and Win CE 5.0 has Pocket IE 6.0. Is there a document which lists what HTML tags are supported
A: There is a doc that will describe the difference of the browsers at a high level. It may not get down to the tag level. Hope this helps.

MikeThom MS (Expert):
https://msdn2.microsoft.com/library/ms919170.aspx

GlennD_MS (Expert):
Q: Has any of the experts heard anything about biometrics devices (like fingerprint scanners) that are designed to work for CE devices?

GlennD_MS (Expert):
A: There are a number of 3rd party solutions, for example AuthenTec provides one..

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: Is there support for RFID or UWB in CE 5.0?
A: And there are examples of RFID devices running on Windows CE 5.0 - Nimble technologies is one example device we demonstrated at our recent developers conference

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: x86? where X is a variable? so X could be 4? so CE could run on a 486?
A: yes, correct.

JayLoney_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Can an ISV produce and resell an upgrade from CE 4.1 to 5.0 when the manufacturer of the device doesn't support the hardware anymore? The specific device in question is a Samsung Nexio S160.
A: This is a device specific question. If you have access to Platform Builder, the device's BSP, and can install images via a bootloader on the device, then the answer can be yes.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: Can an ISV produce and resell an upgrade from CE 4.1 to 5.0 when the manufacturer of the device doesn't support the hardware anymore? The specific device in question is a Samsung Nexio S160.
A: You would need to have a conversation with Samsung about this.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: Has any of the experts heard anything about biometrics devices (like fingerprint scanners) that are designed to work for CE devices?
A: Yes, there are examples of devices based on Windows CE that use biometrics, the "PayByTouch" device is a good example - this is a payment terminal that uses fingerprint recognition.

Tucker_MS (Expert):
Q: We have some custom developed applications on Win CE 4.2 and are trying to determine if it is worthwhile to upgrade to CE 5.0, will the CE 4.2 application run unmodified on CE 5.0?
A: From the command line they should build and run with very little change. Workspaces developed in the 4.2 IDE need to be upgraded to 5.0 before they will work. There is a help topic on migrating workspaces that goes through the process.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: Can we plan on having .NET CF 2.0 standard on all CE 5.0 devices?
A: NetCF 2.0 will be shipping as part of Visual Studio 2005 - this will be supported on Windows CE 5.0

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: What does CE stand for? I know Imp asking noob questions but I want to learn all I can in tech chats
A: CE doesn't stand for anything in particular, although there are a number of variations kicking around "Consumer Edition", "Compact Edition", "Cool Eh!" etc...

JayLoney_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Our custom hardware and bsp are based on pxa255. We plan on migrating to pxa270 within the next year. Advice on whether and how to use the PQOAL?
A: A 4.2 BSP works in 5.0, so you can simply forward port yourself the non-PQOAL BSP. There are 5.0 specific features that you might want to take advantage of however, you'll have to determine their usefulness to your adaptation yourself though on a case by case basis. The PQOAL is fully documented in 5.0.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: Does Win CE support multitasking of custom code or does it have to be specifically written for the Win CE threading model?
A: Windows CE does support multi-tasking and multi-threaded applications, applications create threads using the CreateThread( ); API, once the thread is created it's thread priority and thread quantum can be dynamically altered (start the thread as 'suspended' set the thread priority and quantum, and then resume the thread) - Windows CE supports 256 levels of thread priority - by default all threads in the operating system are created at thread priority 251.

JayLoney_MSFT (Expert):
Q: What will be the pxa255 support under CE *after* 5.0? I.e. when will pxa255 support be abandoned altogether?
A: This decision is still under consideration.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: As a clarification, I was interested in biometric devices that have CE 5.0 (or compat) drivers that aren't already part of a software package (i.e., a device with a SDK for CE)
A: I've not seen drivers or SDK's specifically for biometric devices.

JayLoney_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Does CE 5.0 include support for Cardbus?
A: The new PC Card stack in CE v5.0 has full 32-bit support for Cardbus cards as well as 8 and 16-bit PCMCIA. See the TIPCCARD driver for our Production Quality Driver implementing this functionality.

David_MS (Expert):
Q: Expanding on a previous question using the example of the Citrix ICA client which we don't have source code for and cannot recompile which is available for CE 4.2, will that run on Win CE 5.0 without a need for Citrix to recompile for CE 5.0?
A: Correct. We're not currently aware of any backward compatibility problems. That has been, and continues to be, a key goal as we rev the OS.

David_MS (Expert):
Q: How has the memory footprint changed between CE 4.2 and CE 5.0?
A: We aim to have zero growth for the same components providing the same functionality, and we measure it. There is occasionally some growth as we add new features, but we generally try to make new functionality a new component so it’s optional. Obviously the specific details would depend on the specific components used in your image.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: Will a custom wireless network driver written for Win CE 4.2 work under Win CE 5.0 without a recompilation?
A: yes.

shunm_ MS (Expert):
Q: In CE 4.2 as an example the <PRE> tag is not support and so we had to recode the application to use tables which uses more bandwidth. Another thing was the "<document>" as a parameter was being interpreted incorrectly so we needed to pass %22<document>%22
A: Are you using Pocket IE or Internet Explorer 6.0 for CE?

GlennD_MS (Expert):
Q: As a clarification, I was interested in biometric devices that have CE 5.0 (or compat) drivers that aren't already part of a software package (i.e., a device with a SDK for CE)
A: If you search on www.windowsfordevices.com, it will provide some pointers to 3rd party solutions. You can check with them to see if an SDK is part of their product offering.

JayLoney_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Where can I get additional documentation on the PCCARD common source? There are about a dozen classes and templates....pretty complex IMO...
A: The 5.0 Help files contain supplemental information. We are actually working on an additional doc talking through some of the flow for clearer understanding. Stay tuned to MSDN for a white paper on this in the future.

shunm_ MS (Expert):
Q: As a clarification it is IE 5.5 for CE 4.2 that did not support the <PRE> tag, I have not had a chance to try it with CE 5.0.
A: IE55 for CE supports <PRE> tag, same way as desktop IE browser.

shunm_ MS (Expert):
Q: In CE 4.2 as an example the <PRE> tag is not support and so we had to recode the application to use tables which uses more bandwidth. Another thing was the "<document>" as a parameter was being interpreted incorrectly so we needed to pass %22<document>%22
A: https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/dhtml_reference_entry.asp

GlennD_MS (Expert):
Q: Does Windows CE 5.0 include firewall features for the network interfaces? If so are they designed similarly to the XP SP2 WF?
A: CE 5.0 does include a full featured IPv4 and IPv6 firewall. The configuration interfaces are not API compatible with SP2, but should offer similar functionality.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: What is Microsoft's support policy in regards to the CE platform. We have currently a CE 4.2 platform build and are trying to determine whether we should upgrade it to CE 5.0.
A: Windows CE 4.2 and Windows CE 5.0 are both supported products - take a look here for more information about the support policy for Windows CE and Windows XP Embedded - https://msdn2.microsoft.com/embedded/aa714494.aspx

GlennD_MS (Expert):
Q: Are there any methods to perform simple routing or bridging under CE 5.0? It would be fantastic to be able to bridge or route from a GPRS modem connection to an 802.11 device.
A: Yes, Windows CE supports a layer 2 bridge as well as IP v4 and v6 routing capability. Please refer to the Platform Builder documentation for details on how to configure these features.

Andy Q (Moderator):
To submit a question to our experts please make sure to use the "submit a question" radio button. Otherwise we won’t see it, thanks!

Yadhu_MS (Expert):
Q: I understand that ObjectStore will be eliminated in CE 5.0 in preference to persistent storage like SmartPhone. I expect this will have a significant performance impact in SQLCE database applications. Has there been any performance analysis on the impact?
A: Windows CE 5.0 allows you to build with either object store filesystem or use persistent store as the root filesystem. SYSGEN_FSRAMROM is still available and we have not taken it away.

JayLoney_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Regarding the new USBFN driver...we have modified the standard class drivers to work correctly with our current USBFN which is integrated with DC/HC. Is it possible to keep our existing code and still be compatible with the new class drivers?
A: The 4.2 USBFn drivers were monolithic drivers exposing either RNDIS or serial. In 5.0, USBFn drivers are pure bus drivers which allow for generic clients to be loaded on top following the bus agnostic driver model. The models are different so there's no direct comparison. If this is your BSP though, you can simply use your original USBFN stack in 5.0 though. You won't be able to use our abstracted RNDIS, Serial or MassStore clients though with a 4.2 USBfn driver.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: Will upgrading to CE 5.0 improve the speed or efficiency of applications running on it?
A: We don't have any performance benchmarks out yet - you can read this interview with John Starkweather to get some idea of what's new - https://www.embedded.com/shared/printableArticle.jhtml?articleID=18600029 - Windows CE 5.0 does ship with tools that give you the ability to profile your application and O/S to see what's taking time while your system is running.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: Is there a document that compares the different between CE 4.2 and CE 5.0 in terms of the core subsystems as opposed to the optional subsystems?
A: The Windows CE 5.0 documentation contains information about what's new or changed between Windows CE 4.2 and Windows CE 5.0 - here's the link to the documentation on the web - https://msdn2.microsoft.com/library/ms905330.aspx

Yadhu_MS (Expert):
Q: ditto John's question about Persistent Store performance...where are the numbers, esp for NAND vs. NOR?
A: We don't publish any comparative numbers comparing the technologies since it would depend on platform, application and usage scenarios. You can get raw theoretical numbers from vendors and come up with your own conclusions.

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: At what point in the future will evc4.0 be abandoned in favor of Visual Studio 200x?
A: Windows CE 5.0 supports application development using eMbedded Visual C++ 4.0 (Win32, MFC, ATL), Platform Builder (Win32), and Visual Studio .NET 2003 (C#, VB) - Visual Studio .NET will provide the ability to write both native (Win32, MFC, ATL), and Managed applications from the one Visual Studio IDE - of course Windows CE 5.0 will also support application development from Platform Builder and eMbedded Visual C++ 4.0 SP4.

russellk_MS (Expert):
Q: What is MS' roadmap for ARMV6 instruction set (ARM11 arch) support?
A: As of Windows CE 5.0, we support the ARMv6 instruction set in the assembler and the OS should run on ARMv6 cores with necessary peripherals (MMU, etc). We are considering support for the new instructions in a future version of the compiler and other tools. Where possible, the OS will attempt to take advantage of new ARMv6 features while still maintaining compatibility with older versions of the architecture.

GlennD_MS (Expert):
Q: Does Win CE 5.0 have an SNMP agent that can send out performance data to general management frameworks such as SMS or Openview or Tivoli or Unicenter?
A: Yes, Windows CE has an extensible SNMP (v2) agent architecture and support for common MIBs such as MIBII and hostmib.

Upenders_MS (Expert):
Q: How invasive is using remote perfmon? We want to monitor the performance of our Win CE devices but don't want to impact the applications running on the device dramatically.
A: Remote Perfmon is not too intrusive (unlike remote call profiler). When the tool is running there is a process (rth.exe) which runs on the device which might consume resources. We make every effort to mask out the perf hit by that process in the overall reporting.

Andy Q (Moderator):
For those new to the chat - Our topic is Windows CE 5.0 Live Chat!. We’re about 3/4 in-keep those questions coming!

JayLoney_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Is there sample code for implementing a KITL transport over USB/ActiveSync, as well as other (NDIS/RNDIS, etc) physical layers?
A: Yes. If you look under the \WINCE500\PUBLIC\COMMON\OAK\DRIVERS\ETHDBG\NET2890 you will find the sample of USB KITL.

Andy Q (Moderator):
We have a little less than 10 minutes left, make those last questions count!

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
any more questions ?

Andy Q (Moderator):
4 minutes, we've got 4 minutes...last call??

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: blogs, links, etc??!??
A: you can keep an eye on my blog - https://blogs.msdn.com/mikehall

mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Q: What are the best ways to stay abreast of CE 5.0 developments, white papers, QFEs, etc?
A: There are a number of ways, online chats, newsgroups, the MSDN/Embedded website (get an RSS reader and watch for changes on the site), conferences etc... (and my blog - https://blogs.msdn.com/mikehall)

Andy Q (Moderator):
I thank all our experts and guests today for their participation. Please look for upcoming chats at the following web site: https://msdn.microsoft.com/chats/

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