Windows XP Embedded / WEPOS / POS for .NET (January 30, 2007)
Chat Topic: Windows XP Embedded / WEPOS / POS for .NET MSDN Public Chat!
Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2007
Please note: Portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity
*Introductions
Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Welcome to today’s live chat for the Point of Sale (POS) industry. We’ll be talking about Windows XP Embedded, Windows Embedded for Point of Service (WEPOS) and POS for .NET. Thank you for joining us.
We are pleased to welcome our Experts for today’s chat. I will have them introduce themselves now.
*Introductions
MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Hi there. My name is Matt Kellner, and I'm an SDET with the XP Embedded team. I specialize in Embedded Enabling Features, including EWF and El Torito, and I am the developer for the XPECMD tool in Feature Pack 2007.
mikehall_ms (Moderator):
Hi, I'm Mike Hall, Senior Technical Product Manager in the embedded group at Microsoft.
Briand [MS] (Expert):
I'm Briand Sanderson, a Program Manager for Customer Programs on the WEPOS and POS for .NET team
Bill Moxley [MS] (Expert):
I’m Bill Moxley, Lead Software Design Engineer in Test on the WEPOS team
jimmedd_MSFT (Expert):
Hi, I'm Jim Medding. I'm a SW development engineer with the XPe test team.
David F (Expert):
David Feldman - Product Manager for Windows Embedded for Point of Service and POS for .NET
Khalidsa_MSFT (Expert):
Khalid Sabri, XP embedded and WEPOS product support
lyallen_MSFT (Expert):
Hi, I'm Lynda Allen. I'm a software tester on the XP Embedded team, and I focus on Componentization and component integration.
Kevin_MSFT (Expert):
Hi, I'm Kevin Wonus; I'm a Program Manager on the XP Embedded team.
Kedar [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I am Kedar and I work as a SDET with XP Embedded team.
Luca [MS] (Expert):
Hi! My name is Luca Amapane and I am a PM in the Embedded Windows team.
Harlan [MS] (Expert):
I'm Harlan Husmann, development manager for WEPOS.
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Hi, my name is Sacha Droz. I am the Lead Program Manager for Microsoft Point of Service for .NET (POS for .NET), Windows Embedded for Point of Service (WEPOS) and Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs (WinFLP)
Oren Winter [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Oren Winter, development manager for Embedded Windows team.
Wendy Shi [MS] (Moderator):
Hello, everyone, I am Weijuan (Wendy) Shi, Program Manager of the Embedded Windows Team.
Shweta [MS] (Expert):
HI, I'm Shweta Garg, a developer on the XP embedded product team.
steffen [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I am Steffen Schreier, Program Manager in the Embedded Windows team.
Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Hi, I'm Shayna Begun, Program Manager working on the POS for .NET and XP Embedded products
Travis Avery [MS] (Expert):
I'm Travis Avery, Software Design Engineer in Test on the Vertical Industries team
Wonhee Lee [MS] (Expert):
Hi all, my name is Wonhee Lee, and I am a dev inXP Embedded team.
Konrad [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I’m Konrad Thomas. I am an SDE/T on the POS for .NET team.
Craig [MS] (Expert):
Craig Jensen - Developer working primarily on POS for .NET
ThomasY_MSFT (Expert):
Hi, I'm Thomas Yong, a Program Manager in Windows XP Embedded team
SeanL_MVP (Expert):
Sean Liming - XPe/WEPOS/POS for .NET Author and Consultant - SJJ Embedded Micro Solutions www.sjjmicro.com
Gina (Expert):
Good Morning, I'm Gina Bentley, Program Manager for Servicing and Support for Embedded Windows and the Vertical Industries team.
Milong [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Milong Sabandith. I'm a developer on the Windows Embedded Team.
*Start of Chat
Bill Moxley [MS] (Expert):
Q: Do POS for .NET 1.11 run in Vista?
A: Yes we will support Vista with our Pos for .NET 1.11 release
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Q: Do POS for .NET 1.11 run in Vista?
A: To be accurate, POS for .NET 1.11 will be supported only on Windows Vista Business, Windows Vista Enterprise. POS for .NET will not be supported on the Consumer SKUs
MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: We would like to monitor temperature via SMBus on our embedded device; is the WMI interface (and/or win32) for this documented somewhere? It's has been very hard to find.
A: I believe this functionality is provided by a combination of hardware support and a specific driver provided by your OEM. Windows provides the plumbing for this type of query, but the functionality and implementation needs to be provided by the hardware manufacturer.
Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Q: Congrats on finally including WEPOS
A: Thank you. Do you have any specific questions or comments about WEPOS?
ThomasY_MSFT (Expert):
Q: We will be going to XPe SP2 feature pack 2007 in our next release. Will there be any additional updates to that feature pack?
A: We will be releasing a new Feature Preview package that consists of a list of new Windows Vista downlevel features for XP Pro (i.e. IE7, WMP11, UMDF, .NET3.0, and RDP6.0) around late Q2 2007. This will also include a number of bug fixes and enhancements for FP2007. The CTP for this will be available late Feb. Please stay tuned and participate in the CTP to evaluate this.
MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Also, We have thousands of XPe installed sites. We build on XP Pro. In going to SP2 FP2007 on our targets, will doing a windows update on our build machine get that machine equivalent to the XPe target and is it ok to have DLLs different
A: Hi Dave. Assuming that your XPe runtime has the necessary components to run Windows Update, WU will apply security fixes only, but will not be able to pick up on XPe-specific QFEs or new features provided by FP2007. To take advantage of new features and bug fixes in FP2007, you would need to install the new tools and database update in your build environment, create a new FP2007 runtime, and either redeploy your runtimes from scratch, or look into using the Image Difference Engine to patch your existing runtimes to FP2007. (Note that FP2007 also provides tools updates for the build/dev environment itself, including fixes for importing .reg files and the XPECMD tool for automating builds.)
David F (Expert):
Q: Is there going to be a Vista embedded?
A: Microsoft’s corporate policy does not allow us to outline specifics about future versions of the Windows Embedded (including WEPOS) software, but in general, we are very excited about the new, useful features that will allow our customers to get a better device to market more quickly. Windows Embedded (including WEPOS) has an established roadmap, and we are planning to release product updates and additional versions in the future.
Briand [MS] (Expert):
Q: Will you be adding a forum for WEPOS like XPe so old posts can be archived?
A: We just launched our new blog for WEPOS and POS for .NET at https://blogs.msdn.com/pointofservice. We will be looking into the possibility of adding a forum as well.
Bill Moxley [MS] (Expert):
Q: Will you be adding a forum for WEPOS like XPe so old posts can be archived?
A: We also have our WEPOS newsgroup: microsoft.public.windows.embedded.pointofservice
Oren Winter [MS] (Expert):
Q: I would like to remove the hibernate/F8 text strings from NTLDR so they are not displayed when the unit wakes up from hibernation. Would doing so violate the EULA?
A: As far as I know this is not possible for you to do as these are resources in the kernel/ntdll code and you will have to recompile this code.
Craig [MS] (Expert):
Q: Is it possible to have a POSExplorer support multi-forms in a single application?
A: I'm not completely sure what you are referring to but I suspect it has to do with the synchronizing object property to marshal events to a particular form? You can only marshal events to one form at a time using the SynchronizingObject property but you can sign up for the events from multiple forms and do your own marshaling. You only need to marshal the events if you want to update the UI from the event handler.
Bill Moxley [MS] (Expert):
Q: I asked in the WEPOS newsgroup a while ago about MHT files not being displayed properly. I never got an answer. Can this be looked into?
A: Yes, I can followup with the team to investigate it.
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Q: For POS for .NET is the a new version compatibility between applications and service objects?
A: POS for .NET 1.11 is based on the 2.0 version of the Microsoft .NET Framework. This means that your application must load version 2.0 or higher of the CLR when starting. .NET SOs written for prior versions of POS for .NET (1.0 or 1.1) should just work as they were using a lower .NET Framework version (1.1).
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Q: Are there any Group Policy templates for WEPOS??
A: There are no WEPOS specific GPO templates at this point. However, the traditional XP GPO templates are applicable to WEPOS. If you have specific things you'd like to see exposed as WEPOS specific GPO, send us your suggestions.
Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Q: Bill I have posted in the newsgroup. Many times there are no answers from the MS people usually its Sean. & there is no archive.
A: Thank you for the suggestion of adding a WEPOS forum - we understand the added benefit of the archiving feature and will be looking into the possibility of starting one going forward. We will also look at the newsgroups more frequently to assist our customers. Thanks.
Bill Moxley [MS] (Expert):
Q: Bill I have posted in the newsgroup. Many times there are no answers from the MS people usually its Sean. & there is no archive.
A: The newsgroup is read by a number of people on the team regularly. It is a community resource and you will see your questions answered by Microsoft Employees, our MVPs, and by other customers/partners of Microsoft. All messages are read and taken as feedback for product plans. The need for an archive is understood and is being worked on.
Craig [MS] (Expert):
Q: Does POS .NET use the windows spooler for print devices, or does it print directly to the printer devices?
A: POS for .NET does not access hardware directly, that's what service objects do. Typically, PosPrinter service objects do not use the Windows print spooler. A PosPrinter and a Windows printer and quite different in nature so service objects typically need to talk directly to the hardware.
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Q: is there any best practices, hardening document done by Microsoft? Any Group Policy Templates to harden WEPOS???
A: The usual XP Pro best practices are applicable (See my previous answer regarding WEPOS specific GPO templates)
SeanL_MVP (Expert):
Q: is there any best practices, hardening document done by Microsoft? Any Group Policy Templates to harden WEPOS???
A: Mansoor, you can use the security template defined by the NSA for WEPOS - https://www.nsa.gov/. The XPe help files have some information as well.
Briand [MS] (Expert):
Q: any good hardening / security document for WEPOS ??
A: You could start with https://www.microsoft.com/MSPress/books/8763.aspx I know of nothing specific to WEPOS, but most of the Windows XP Group Policy should apply to WEPOS
David F (Expert):
Q: As somebody who used to use XPe & moved to WEPOS I feel that there is much info lacking for the OEMs to use Wepos and also to educate our customers that WEPOS is a viable OS. They don't know what it is.
A: What specific information are you looking for? We do have information on the MS.com site and the MSDN site. In addition, we have direct dialogue with the OEMs daily. Please let me know exactly what you are looking for and I can assist.
SeanL_MVP (Expert):
Q: As somebody who used to use XPe & moved to WEPOS I feel that there is much info lacking for the OEMs to use Wepos and also to educate our customers that WEPOS is a viable OS. They don't know what it is.
A: Dan - there is a book on WEPOS / POS for .NET - https://www.sjjmicro.com
SeanL_MVP (Expert):
Q: Sean why should I have to buy your book, I already have the XPe advanced, excellent book. Shouldn't MS provide proper documentation?
A: You don't have to buy the book. It’s just another data point. MS has all sorts of documentation on WEPOS in MSDN and the WEPOS site. There was a presentation in last year's MEDC that covered WEPOS as well. What information are you looking for or need?
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Q: Sean why should I have to buy your book, I already have the XPe advanced, excellent book. Shouldn't MS provide proper documentation?
A: We have significantly reworked our POS for .NET documentation for version 1.11. You will now find additional content explaining how to create an application and how to create .NET Service Objects.
Briand [MS] (Expert):
Q: The web site has a purpose but it should not serve as a substitute for written docs that I can use to explain to customers what is WEPOS and not the marketing hype please. How it fits into their network, etc. This may be clear to us but it’s not to them.
A: We would be interested in hearing specifically what is missing from our documentation that would make a difference for you.
ThomasY_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Any planned HDCP support for XP Embedded?
A: We do not have plan for HDCP for XPe at the moment. Can you tell us what your requirements and applications for this feature?
ThomasY_MSFT (Expert):
Q: HDCP support - Providing Prerecorded High definition video output to HDTV
A: Thanks for your answer. We will consider this in our future planning for XPe. Additional questions: how/what application will you use to playback HD content, and where would the content come from?
ThomasY_MSFT (Expert):
Q: HDCP Support - different sources, all loaded by the user.
A: Thank you. Please feel free to contact us in the future.
Bill Moxley [MS] (Expert):
Q: I would like to have the EWF capability in WEPOS. How can it be done or can you add the feature?
A: We do not support using EWF with WEPOS, but we are hearing from our customers that write protecting their WEPOS systems is important and we are looking to address this.
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Q: You mention using WEPOS for ATMs etc, are there any plans to introduce communications APIs - eg 8583/APACS and the like?
A: We do not have specific plans for this at this point. However, we would love to hear more about your needs and see if this is something we should consider for a future release. Send us an email.
David F (Expert):
Q: I had a customer who wanted to use WSUS. The WEPOS site mentioned SUS. Shayna said this would get this changed. It still is not. This was in Nov. We had to install XP Pro.
A: The web site needs to be updated to state that WEPOS supports WSUS. I will make sure this is resolved ASAP.
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Q: Are there any tools or utilities to help in the use of features from WEPOS that will allow applications to allow customers to get a better device to market ?
A: One of the many benefits of using WEPOS instead of XPe for POS devices is the availability of POS for .NET. POS for .NET can dramatically reduce your application development time as well as simplify handling of POS peripherals. There is a growing number of POS peripherals vendors providing verified .NET SOs for their devices.
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
A: Another benefit of WEPOS is that is it a standard, fully MS supported Operating System with its own setup program. You don't need to be an XPe expert and know how to create and maintain XPe runtimes for each and every HW platforms you are targeting. Basically, you can install WEPOS just like a traditional Windows Desktop OS, by booting from the CD or over Remote Installation Services. Sysprep is also supported (needs a QFE). SMS OSD is also supported.
Khalidsa_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Is there any documentation about creating a recovery CD or DVD for WEPOS? (If most of WEPOS is used in the build it won't fit on a standard CD.)
A: You use any recovery solution for other Windows platforms, say for example compressing the WEPOS image into a binary file using any disk imaging utilities and then loading the binary on a DVD bootable in Windows PE or use a CD bootable in WinPE and access the binary file from a network share instead of embedding the binary on the CD which probably won't fit as you mentioned
MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: If the unit boots from a flash card, is there any stability advantage for formatting the card NTFS?
A: In general, not really. NTFS provides enhanced file system security and more redundancy, so it will inherently be superior to FAT32 and FAT16. But I don't think this is made any more or less stable by running on CompactFlash vs a regular hard drive. There are some hardware-specific concerns related to writing during power loss, but basically there are pros and cons to both solutions when you start looking at the deep technical details.
Gina (Expert):
Q: I tested the Windows Update on WEPOS today. The DST patch was not included in the auto update. Why?
A: The DST patch is an optional download, so it shows up under the Optional updates list, rather than as an automatic update.
MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: We have limited bandwidth between Head Office and our stores so we send deltas to the XPe image zip file on the FS. Do you see any advantage, or have any guidance on using the "Vista" version of WinPE from BDD2007 with WIM files?
A: Deploying updates to XPe or WEPOS images via WIM is not supported at this time.
Khalidsa_MSFT (Expert):
Q: I asked before about SMbus access to hw, and was directed to hw vendors. Hmm. Any pointers to the foundation SMBus facility provided by MS? ALSO, assume Intel is the vendor. Any pointers to their resources, if you have them, would be appreciated.
A: Since it's not really XPe or WEPOS specific, I'd recommend posting on a better newsgroups to get further info. Start with the XP Pro General one: https://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/newsgroups/reader.mspx?dg=microsoft.public.windowsxp.general⟨=en&cr;=U
Bill Moxley [MS] (Expert):
Q: I just recently took up POS for .NET, but why are there so little samples about how to use the printers cashdrawers etc.?
A: Included in the POS for .NET SDK there is a simulator for several devices, including cash drawers and printers. We include the full source code for these simulators, so they demonstrate very well what is required to implement a service object for these devices. On the application side we include a sample app that will control POS for .NET devices. We also include the full source code for that, so it demonstrates very well what is required to use POS for .NET from an application. We also are continuing to improve our documentation both in our product releases and online between our product releases.
SeanL_MVP (Expert):
Q: I just recently took up POS for .NET, but why are there so little samples about how to use the printers cashdrawers etc.?
A: Robert R: Some samples are available in my book and some posted on my WEPOS site: https://www.seanliming.com/. Mike Hall had a couple of samples posted on his blog. I don't know of other sites that might have samples posted.
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Q: Regarding POS for .NET Management: today, you can either use our command line tool called POSDM or write your own tool/script and use WMI directly. What would you like us to investigate for future releases? For example, would you be interested to have POS for .NET CommandLets for Windows PowerShell?
Sacha [MS] (Expert):
Q: What is POS for .NET Commandles for Windwos PowerShell?
A: Microsoft Windows PowerShell command line shell and scripting language helps IT Professionals achieve greater productivity. Using a new admin-focused scripting language, more than 130 standard command line tools, and consistent syntax and utilities, Windows PowerShell allows IT Professionals to more easily control system administration and accelerate automation. Windows PowerShell is easy to adopt, learn, and use, because it works with your existing IT infrastructure and existing script investments, and because it runs on Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows Server 2003 and Windows Server “Longhorn”. Exchange Server 2007, System Center Operations Manager 2007, System Center Data Protection Manager V2, and System Center Virtual Machine Manager leverage Windows PowerShell to improve efficiency and productivity. (https://www.microsoft.com/PowerShell). What I was referring to is the opportunity to create the CommandLets (aka PowerShell Plug-ins) to expose POS for .NET specific functionalities in PowerShell.
MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: For those of you working with XP Embedded, have you tried out Feature Pack 2007? If so, how is it working for you? We're always interested in hearing your feedback. :) - SeanL: FP2007 is Great and working very well! - TrevorH: Re FP2007: I like the increased componentization (reduced my image size by 10 meg or so), the registry import fix in CD, and the command line tools. I have had a few minor probs (RunOnceEx) and currently with the Display properties control panel... - TrevorH: ... submitted a possible bug/workaround on the former and need to do some more work on the Display control panel to ensure I haven't messed up. -
lyallen_MSFT (Expert):
TrevorH- can you send me details at wecrt alias to specify what issues you are having with Display control panel? I got your info about RunOnceEx- thanks. -
MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Trevor: Thanks for the feedback. If you find out specifically what the issue with the Display Control Panel is, please let us know. We'll definitely look into it. - TrevorH: MattKell: No problem, will do. The symptom is that it simply doesn't load, so I assume that I'm missing a dependency. -
MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
It's certainly possible we missed a dependency in our refactoring of that and other components. Have you checked the release notes?
steffen [MS] (Expert):
Q: There is a new build of Image Difference Engine CTP evaluation available now! Have you tried out Image Diff? If so, how is it working for you?
MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: We have some problem running some service in XPE, sometimes the service start and in other does not with no particular error event posted in the events l. How can we investigate this kind of problems ? Specifically the service was related to a UPS monitor.
A: Hi Julio. Often, if you're experiencing problems getting services to start correctly, you can examine the FBALOG.TXT and Setupapi.log files after FBA to see if there are any errors specific to that service. That might give you some more information about why the service isn't starting correctly. The UPS service in particular usually fails under two circumstances (that I'm aware of, anyway): Either you are not running an ACPI HAL, or there is some driver or low-level dependency missing from the runtime.
Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
As our experts wrap up the last few questions, we wanted to let you know that we'll be holding another chat in about a month - so stay tuned through the newsgroups, forums and blogs for more details and specific dates!
Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Thank you for joining us today for our chat with the Windows XP Embedded, WEPOS and POS for .NET teams.
A special thank you to the product group members for hosting today. If you have further questions, we’d certainly welcome you to post in the relevant newsgroup:
XP Embedded: microsoft.public.windowsxp.embedded
WEPOS/POS for .NET: microsoft.public.windows.embedded.pointofservice
You are encouraged to check our team blog sites as well for any latest development or news:
XP Embedded: https://blogs.msdn.com/embedded/default.aspx
WEPOS/POS for .NET: https://blogs.msdn.com/pointofservice/default.aspx
A link to the transcript will be posted to the newsgroups shortly.
We hope to see you again for a future chat!
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