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Windows Embedded Standard CTP (June 17, 2008)

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Chat Topic: Windows Embedded Standard CTP
Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2008

Please note: Portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
Welcome to today’s chat with the Windows Embedded team!  On 5/30/08 we released a Community Technology Preview (CTP) of Windows Embedded Standard, the next generation of Windows XP Embedded.  Hopefully everyone has downloaded it from Microsoft Connect and has been trying it out over the past few weeks.  We’ve got the program managers, developers, and testers involved with Windows Embedded Standard online today to talk to you about this very exciting release.  Please feel free to ask any questions about the CTP, or give us your feedback on your experiences in using the CTP.  As always, we’re also happy to help answer any other questions related to Windows XP Embedded!

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
We are pleased to welcome our Experts for today’s chat. I will have them introduce themselves now

Andy_MS (Moderator):
I'm Andy Allred, Test Manager for XPe.

Oren [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Oren Winter and I am the software development manager in the Embedded Windows team.

KedarB_MSFT (Expert):
Hi, I am Kedar Borhade an SDET working with the Windows embedded team test team

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Hi! I am Luca Amapane, Program Manager in the Windows Embedded team.

Milong [MS] (Expert):
Hi! I'm Milong Sabandith, Lead Developer on the Windows Embedded Team.

Weijuan Shi [MS] (Expert):
Hello, everyone, I am Weijuan Shi, a Program Manager on the team

MSFT_JimM (Expert):
Hi, I'm Jim Medding. I'm a SW development engineer with the Windows Embedded test team.

Steffen [MSFT] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Steffen Schreier, Lead Program Manager in the Embedded Windows team

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
Hello, I'm Shayna Begun, I manage the pre-release programs from the Windows Embedded team.

Nick [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Nick Nehrhood.  I'm a SDET (S/W Dev Engineer in Test) on the Windows Embedded Standard test team.

Lesley_MSFT (Expert):
Hi, I'm Lesley Bacon, a program manager on the team focused on pre-release.

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Hi everyone.  I'm Matt Kellner, and I'm an SDET with the Embedded Windows team.

 

Start of chat:

CParker (Expert):
Q: When will windows embedded standard officially be released?
A: We are targeting Q4 right now but things change if we get feedback from the CTP that we are not ready to ship we will do what is right for the quality of the product.

Weijuan Shi [MS] (Expert):
Q: What are the requirements for the standard?
A: In general, the requirements are the same as those of Windows XP Embedded. You can find info on this page: https://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=9BDF1DEA-A37E-4D25-83DF-AABBAA78914F&displaylang=en

Weijuan Shi [MS] (Expert):
Q: What is Microsoft's official stand on support for both XP embedded and embedded standard? I have heard different years from different Microsoft employees.
A: It will be 10-year product support life cycle, Windows Embedded Standard starts CY2008, XPe started in CY2002. This page on MSDN gives you the comparison between the two: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/embedded/bb981920.aspx. You can also check one of our blogs which has more details on lifecycle support: https://blogs.msdn.com/embedded/archive/2006/11/24/xp-embedded-lifecycle-support.aspx.

Weijuan Shi [MS] (Expert):
Q: I'm still learning to use WES but events like this are a huge help, keep it coming.
A: That's great feedback. There will be more :). Meanwhile, you can always post your feedback to wecrt@microsoft.com, or the forums/newsgroups, or the connect site.

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: I was going to purchase The Embedded XP Platform development kit, when I heard about Windows Embedded Standard.  I want to know if I purchase Windows XP Platform development kit, will I get a free upgrade to Windows Embedded Standard.
A: XP Embedded toolkits purchased between June and the RTM date for Windows Embedded Standard can be exchanged for a Windows Embedded Standard Toolkit. This is the Toolkit Guarantee program. More information will be posted online on <https://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/default.mspx>.

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: Apart from more macros what other differences are under the bonnet over the XPe tool set. How do I justify asking my boss for another $1000 for another tool very similar to the one I already have?
A: These are some of the key features offered with Windows Embedded Standard:

  • 10-years support lifecycle starting from 2008
  • RDP 6.1
  • .NET3.5
  • SP3
  • Silverlight
  • SCCM OSD
  • Sysprep
  • Kernel Mode Driver Framework
  • Additional driver support (Intel, VIA, AMD)
  • Interoperability with WS2008
  • A brand new out of the box experience

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: If I have an XPe SLD, will I just be able to import it into WES?
A: Yes, you can import your XP Embedded SLDs into Windows Embedded Standard.

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: I installed WES + sql express on a fairly vanilla Vista system, but CDM is unable to connect to the db, even though the sql admin tools connect w/o a problem. I've attempted the system name and systemname\sqlexpress. Ideas?
A: When you installed SQL Express, did you select a named instance (e.g. SQLEXPRESS) or the default instance?

Oren [MS] (Expert):
Q: When I ran tap on a base Windows XP machine with Windows XP Embedded and again with Windows Embedded Standard, each generated a different number of components needed to install, is this normal?
A: How did you run tap.exe? Did you run it on WinPE in both scenarios? We have changed the version of WinPE in WES so that may explain it. Please let us know if there are missing entries in the new pmq file or mismatches.

Oren [MS] (Expert):
Q: What is windows PE? I basically copied over the Tap.exe file that was included with each install to a base XP Professional Machine with nothing originally installed, so that I could get I base set of components to work with before I add/delete components.
A: WinPE is the Preinstallation Enviornment that comes with WES and XPE as a minimal (think DOS like) OS that allows you to do very basic things including running tap.exe. If you haven't used WinPE and have used XP Pro to run tap.exe and have used the same OS on the same machine you shouldnt see any differences in the pmq file. I this indeed happens, please file a bug through the connect site.

Oren [MS] (Expert):
Q: When Windows Embedded standard is released will it have a component for .Net 3.5 SP1. As it stands, there is only support for .Net 3.0
A: We are planning to release WES with a component for .Net 3.5. You are correct that currently the CTP only has a .Net 3.0 component.

Oren [MS] (Expert):
Q: Is there a tool to compare 2 SLX files and output the different components (like 'diff')? If I am developing for multiple platforms and with a large number of components, this would help me create a non-platform specific macro.
A: You could save them as xml files and then use standard tools (like WinDiff) to compare the 2 xmls. SLXs are binary format and we don't have a dedicated tool for doing comparisons on these. But thanks for the feedback - we may consider that in our next release ;-)

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: I’m new! What’s Windows Embedded?
A: Windows Embedded Standard is a version of the Windows XP operating system that is designed for embedded devices.  An embedded system is generally one that serves a specific function in the marketplace, such as a point-of-sale kiosk, an ATM, cash register, gaming device (both video games and slot machines!), etc.  In other words, not a general-purpose PC.  Embedded Standard allows developers to create OS images that serve their specific needs while reducing the size of the runtime and the "attack surface area" (less components = less for hackers to attack).

Gina_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Will WES include a component for supporting Visual C++ VS2008 programs?
A: We are not updating the runtime for Visual C++ VS2008 with the Windows Embedded Standard release; however, we are reviewing that work for post-Standard release.

Gina_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Regarding the support for Windows XP Embedded, I was told by a Microsoft representative, that it would continue to be supported until 2017, was this representative incorrect then?
A: Windows XP Embedded support will retire following Microsoft lifecycle policy, found at https://support.microsoft.com/?LN=en-us&x=8&y=13&scid=fh%3Ben-us%3Blifecycle. Since Windows Embedded Standard is the successor product to Windows XP Embedded, Windows XP Embedded will go into extended support two years following the Windows Embedded Standard release. Windows Embedded Standard, as a new product, will have a full ten year life cycle, five years mainstream support, and five years extended support.

Milong [MS] (Expert):
Q: Sysprep has command -activated, and ask the product key when resealed. Will WES need be activated?
A: WES will have the same activation requirements as XP Embedded. The runtimes still require a product key but there is no activation required which needs to connect to a central server. In essence you still don't need to activate your runtime.

Milong [MS] (Expert):
Q: On our current product we have a linux partition so save backups of the image. Does Microsoft have any plans for providing a backup tool?
A: Another tool that might be useful for you is Image X. It can be used to capture an image and deploy it again.

For more information see https://xpefiles.com/cs/blogs/bcombs/archive/2007/08/21/howto-using-windows-pe-2-0-and-image-x-to-deploy-windows-xp-embedded.aspx

Nick [MS] (Expert):
Q: For my application, I need to load about 50 individual components, is there any way to run a batch file in the component manager so that I don’t have to add each component separately?
A: There are two possible methods for you to accomplish this batch task. 

The first is to open Component Designer and to create a component which depends on all of these other components.  When you add that component to your config (you must first import the SLD that you create with Component Designer into the database of course) and you run a check dependencies, the other components will be brought into the image without you having to individually go and add them to your config. 

The second method is to have a list of the components into a XPECMD answer file (please see the Windows Embedded Standard help docs for information on how to use XPECMD) and what you can do is use XPECMD to build your runtime image.  What this allows is that you can script the add process for these components and you can also build from that environment.  Alternatively - you can save that configuration (with those dependencies added already) SLX and just use that as your boiler plate configuration for other configurations which require it.

a-sekire_MSFT (Expert):
Q: What are the requirements for the standard?
A: Microsoft Windows XP Professional SP2 or Windows Server® 2003 StandardMicrosoft Windows Vista or Windows Server 2008 Standard. https://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/products/westandard/technical-specifications.mspx

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Can we use the same PID that we got with XP Embedded with the WES?
A: We do have a new set of PIDs for WES, so the PIDs for earlier XP Embedded products will not work with WES. 

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Is there an technical article that covers migrating custom components created pre-WES into WES?  I setup WES on a new machine and want to bring everything over to it now.
A: I don't think we have such an article right now, but we can definitely write one up for the Embedded Blog as a whitepaper.  We'll take this into consideration.

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Is there an technical article that covers migrating custom components created pre-WES into WES?  I setup WES on a new machine and want to bring everything over to it now.
A: In general, importing custom components into the WES database works exactly the same as in a pre-WES database.  You can import your custom components via Component Database Manager or the XPECMD tool, and they will be available to use in Target Designer.

Milong [MS] (Expert):
Q: Sysprep has command -activated, and ask the product key when resealed. Will WES need be activated?
A: WES will have the same activation requirements as XP Embedded. The runtimes still require a product key but there is no activation required which needs to connect to a central server. In essence you still don't need to activate your runtime.

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: On our current product we have a linux partition so save backups of the image. Does Microsoft have any plans for providing a backup tool?
A: This depends on your requirements.  XPe Feature Pack 2007 shipped with a value-add tool, dbrestore.vbs, which can back up and restore your component database.  This is useful for preserving a specific version of your database, but it does not back up images.  Runtime configurations can be saved and re-built as individual SLX files.  The built images themselves can be backed up simply by copying the images offline to any place you wish to store them.  However, to my knowledge, we do not have plans to provide an automated backup tool for a live or offline image.  Some third-party tools, such as Norton Ghost, may serve your needs.

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: I have seen that after upgrading my SP2007 image to WES size of SLX file increase and load time also. I guess that the import don't optimize. Am I wrong?
A: This is a difficult question to answer because there are several different upgrade scenarios, some of which will bring in larger components and component chains.  For example, if you upgrade from an FP07 image to WES with IE7 and/or WMP11, these components are larger and there will not be a way to avoid that increase in size.  There are also some known issues with some lower-level components introducing some footprint increases where it doesn't appear to make sense - we are working on addressing those as we find them.

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: I have seen that after upgrading my SP2007 image to WES size of SLX file increase and load time also. I guess that the import don't optimize. Am I wrong?
A: In general, though, upgrading an image from one revision to another generally causes some increase in runtime size - you can usually improve this by starting from a base set of high-level components (for example, "Information Appliance" macro, EWF, your PMQ file, etc.), upgrading just those components (if necessary), and then resolving dependencies from there, as opposed to upgrading all of the components in your original runtime.  This procedure will take into account any refactoring work we may have done between releases.

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Is there integration of the WES dev tools with VS TFS? Work Items, Version control etc.
A: Unfortunately, the WES development tools do not integrate with Visual Studio at this time.

Mattkell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: In working with XPe Platform designer (at a remote location), I have trouble keeping my laptop repository synchronized with the office one, is there an easy way to do this, are some offline way that can sync changes later?
A: Could you clarify something for me?  When you refer to your "laptop repository", do you mean your component database?  The repositories are a set of folders that contain your binaries for building your image, but the tools connect to a database, which then uses those repositories.

KedarB_MSFT (Expert):
Q: For those of us that are not OS experts, what would you suggest as a resource so that we can find out what components we need to include in images to get the functionality that is desired? MSDN and the help file were of very little help to me.
A: Waday, I assume you have an application which you want to run on a XP embedded system and you are seeking a tool to help you discover the application dependencies.

To get an application to successfully run on XPe you need to satisfy its static and runtime dependencies. You can use depends.exe to find out static dependencies of the binaries and Process Monitor to find out dynamic dependencies. More information on these tools can be downloaded from MSDN. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/embedded/aa731378.aspx#xpeapp

MSFT_JimM (Expert):
Q: For those of us that are not OS experts, what would you suggest as a resource so that we can find out what components we need to include in images to get the functionality that is desired? MSDN and the help file was of very little help to me.
A: Here's a blog article that discusses how to discover dependencies for a 3rd party application: https://blogs.msdn.com/embedded/pages/460335.aspx

KedarB_MSFT (Expert):
Q: I am looking for the easiest solution for OS updates in the field. Most of our customers IT systems are UNIX based and will not allow our products access to the internet. Can you recommend a good method of updating our products in the field?
A: Paul, are your customers enterprise customers? Have you had a look at enterprise solutions like SCCM https://www.microsoft.com/systemcenter/configurationmanager/en/us/default.aspx

Thomasy_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Does WES support Intel Montevian Platform, which is Penryn CPU + Cantiga (Intel GM45 Chipset) + ICH9M South bridge?
A: If you have the right drivers for XP for Montevina, then WES should support that.  However, those drivers need to be componentized (i.e. into SLD files) before you can include in the XPe image build.  I do not know if Intel has the drivers for XP yet.  Do you?

Thomasy_MSFT (Expert):
Q: To make it more clear, does WES contain components for Montevina platform?
A: As I mentioned previously, I don't know if any Montevina drivers available for XP (desktop) yet.  We need to check with Intel.

Thomasy_MSFT (Expert):
Q: We do have a reference board from Intel for the Montevina Platform called, silver cascade. And I there are drivers for this reference board. I guess I need to do some home work on Intel's website. Thanks for the info.
A: More home work indeed.  Please let us know what you find out.

Thomasy_MSFT (Expert):
Q: FEEDBACK: So far, so good.  I like the additional Intel components since I work on multiple platforms and the new tap recognized them.  I wish I could diff images in target designer (since I can't open 2 at once).  Thanks all.
A: Thanks for the feedback.  Mind telling us what additional Intel components you refer to?

Thomasy_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Is the explorer component in WES more granulated?  In the past, I've added components due to dependencies and as a result a plethora of explorer related components come along for the ride.  Some of these components I would prefer not to have for security reasons.
A: IE6 in FP2007 release and IE7 in Update Rollup 1.0 have been much more componentized (i.e. pulling iexplore.exe, html-rendering, imapi, etc.) into more granular components, so you should gain more footprint advantage.  WES maintains the same granularity for IE6/7 as in FP2007/UR1.0.

chesong_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Is there any planned support for offline support (or am I doing things wrong).  I often work in places where no internet is available, and have installed the tools on my laptop, but keeping things consistent between my laptop and the office is difficult.
A: Can you elaborate your scenario a little more? Is this something related to Windows Embedded Standard database and repository connectivity issue?

chesong_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Sorry, when I asked about offline support I was referring to the XP embedded Platform Designer and the problems I had because I could not connect to the repository at the office.
A: What is that "offline" means, can you explain a bit more? Does it mean that you lost connectivity to the database and the repository?

Steffen [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Does the new version of SCCM, or the SCCM Client have the intelligence to disable and enable the Write Filter on WES?
A: SCCM 2007 documentation describes how to integrate with write filters. The logic is not built into the client; you have to use task sequences with scripts that are similar to what is described in the SMS 2003 whitepaper. https://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=35D49075-6580-4348-B541-

Steffen [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I am looking for the easiest solution for OS updates in the field. Most of our customers IT systems are UNIX based and will not allow our products access to the internet. Can you recommend a good method of updating our products in the field?
A: There is a servicing guide which is part of the Microsoft Windows XP Embedded Resource Kit that might answer some of your questions https://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=f4a453e2-fcef-49c2-87ac-cebe233a5f8d&DisplayLang=en

Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Thank you for joining us today for our chat with the Windows Embedded team.

A special thank you to the product group members for hosting today.  If you have further questions, we’d certainly welcome you to post in the Windows Embedded Standard forum: https://forums.microsoft.com/EmbeddedWindows. .  Don’t forget to check out our blog as well: https://blogs.msdn.com/embedded.